Society Blog
Debaters give us confidence – and a challenge
12 Jun 09
Quality of the Society's Donald Dewar competition final shows that Scotland has talent for the future – can the profession benefit?
The eloquence of the school students who last night took part in the final of the Society’s annual Donald Dewar Memorial Debating Tournament was impressive – and hugely encouraging for the future. Congratulations first to the winning team from Glasgow Academy and a special mention to the runners-up, from George Heriot’s. The future of debate in Scotland is certainly assured if their performance is anything to go by. More than that, if these young people go on to become the civic and business leaders of tomorrow, the future of Scotland itself is truly in safe and capable hands.
But what the participants said off-microphone also made a lasting impression. All those I spoke to were focused on fulfilling their potential, initially by working hard to achieve the best exam results possible and then in the career of their choice. Some had a clear idea of what university they hoped to attend, others less so. But, with a variety of options in England and elsewhere, it was far from certain that they would choose to study or pursue a career in Scotland. The Scottish legal profession – surely a natural home for those with an interest in debate – was mentioned as a possibility, but so too were other vocations.
The challenge for the Scottish solicitors’ profession is obvious – how are we to continue to attract the brightest and the best? While the occasional unseemly spat among ourselves does little to promote the ideal image, there is no doubt that a career in the law offers tremendous opportunities. To build on that, the study and practice of law must be regarded as modern, exciting and worthwhile, particularly for those who want to make a difference. The responsibility for that lies with us all.
Certainly, I look ahead with considerable confidence. Not only does the Society’s debating tournament continue to go from strength to strength but our comprehensive review of legal education and training is also firmly focused on attracting and retaining the best students and lawyers, notwithstanding the dearth of current job opportunities. In the meantime, we can also look forward to Scotland hosting the 2011 World Schools Debating Championships, which will take place in Dundee. Given yesterday evening’s display of talent, there is good reason to be optimistic about the possibility of a victory on home soil.
Lorna Jack is Chief Executive of the Law Society of Scotland
Your comment
A McSorley
Sunday June 28, 2009, 20:17
If only the legal profession was interested in recruiting the "brightest and the best". I distinctly remember a rep from the Law Society who, whilst I was on the diploma, stating quite calmly (I am sure I noticed a smirk) that the average lawyer in Scotland would soon be "female and under 30". How does this tie in with recruiting the "brightest and best"? As long as you are young and female? I gave up a successful career in investment banking IT in the City of London because I felt that I could "make a difference" as a lawyer in this country. I graduated from the diploma (after the fast track LLB) in 2008 and I have yet to even be invited for interview. The problem? In my opinion (and hopefully the opinion of the employment tribunals) the main reason I am unemployed is I am 37 (and male as one firm is about to find out).
The "young people" mentioned in this article will go on to be the "civic and business leaders of tomorrow" due to their background, not their talent.
The Law Society should be more concerned with the manner in which law firms in this country go about recruiting for traineeships. It should also be concerned as to the amount of institutions accredited to provide the diploma versus the number of firms actually recruiting. What about the actual talent that is currently being wasted, as opposed to some pampered school children debating irrelevant nonsense?
The unthinking arrogance of this article is matched only by its breathtaking naivety.
female solicitor
Friday July 10, 2009, 16:38
I see absolutely no credible argument for saying that participation in a prestigious debating tournament in memory of Donald Dewar involves "irrelevant nonsense". These young people are showing commitment to improving their abilities in research and communication and developing confident, clear and accurate presentation skills - all qualities which any recruitment partner at a law firm will tell you are things that they look for in any lawyer or prospective trainee they recruit.
It is a matter of fact, rather than opinion, that the average lawyer in Scotland will soon be female and under 30, as for a number of years the majority of LLB students have been female school leavers. If most LLB students in recent years had been 30-something men, most solicitors would soon be 30-something men. It is attracting the "brightest and best" to undertake the LLB and Diploma which is the issue I think Ms Jack refers to.
Prospective employers consider how an applicant would fit into their organisation - and they would consider how effectively you would learn from and take instructions from a 24 year-old newly qualified solicitor (such as I once was). Based on your comments, it is not clear how receptive you would be to that. Age is, as you may agree with, irrelevant - the 26 year old 2 year PQE solicitor has at least four more years' experience than you as a lawyer; it is that experience which is vital, not age. I think it may be you who is naive, not Ms Jack.
A McSorley
Sunday July 26, 2009, 22:38
"Prospective employers consider how an applicant would fit into their organisation".
Where to begin with that one?
You obviously don't specialise in employment law. So you can be the best candidate on merit, but you might not "fit in"? Have a think about the ramifications of that and then get back to me.
"...and they would consider how effectively you would learn from and take instructions from a 24 year-old newly qualified solicitor (such as I once was)".
This remark is as blatantly ageist as it has ever been my misfortune to experience. If your mindset is prevalent in the profession then it is no wonder I am still seeking an invite to interview, let alone a traineeship.
If you are moved to respond, please have the courage to state your name like I have. Then again if I was making discriminatory comments I would hide behind an alias too.
Guy Murphy
Monday August 3, 2009, 22:07
The best and the brightest should be just that, and if 30-somethings can't even obtain an interview then there is no prospect of acquiring the best and the brightest.
There are reasons fast track training is offered to mature students from medicine to law and that's because industry and government recognised that a mature adult with an existing professional career may have something to offer a different industry that a 24 year old does not. An industry that does not allow other professions to permeate it is doomed to become a mono-culture.
If there are difficulties in integrating mature individuals into junior roles, then that is the issue that needs addressed. By the industry, not by the 30-somethings looking to do a job for which they have trained hard, presumably with reasonable assurances that their efforts would not be in vain.
OR... Do we tell everybody studying law who happens to be over the age of 30 to stop now?
Pick one.
I think Mr McSorley has a valid point and I wish him the best in his endeavours.
TP
Saturday August 8, 2009, 00:25
I was under the impression that due to ageism laws that application forms could not ask for an applicant's date of birth? Certainly from my own recent experience of applying for jobs (and also not being invited for interview) I have noticed that most private firms do not ask for any details relating to age.
Without meaning to be condescending this is an awful time to be trying to enter the profession and I can understand your frustrations. However, hundreds of candidates are being left disappointed all over the country with rejections, traineeship deferrals, and rescinding of offers. I am 26 and have a full LLB Hons and Diploma and no traineeship. I have just assumed that to date there have been better candidates than myself on paper and I have continued to remain patient in my attempts to secure an interview and eventually a traineeship.
I know first and second year trainees, male and female, who are 30, 35 and 40. Their futures are uncertain but I doubt they will blame ageism should they not be offered permanent posts.
Good [luck] Mr McSorley - I think you are going to need it.
Vincent F
Tuesday August 11, 2009, 23:52
TP:
"I was under the impression that due to ageism laws that application forms could not ask for an applicant's date of birth?"
This is a valid point; however the age of an applicant can be easily inferred from their CV, work history, date of graduation etc.
Unfortunately, the attitude of "female solicitor" is endemic in the workplace today, not just concerning junior/trainee positions but at all levels. To quote:
"Prospective employers consider how an applicant would fit into their organisation - and they would consider how effectively you would learn from and take instructions from a 24 year-old newly qualified solicitor "
In other words it's an awkward situation for a 24 year old to be telling a 30+ year old what to do. Throw in a "we don't want someone stuck in their ways and unwilling to learn/change" and you start to see an emerging trend.
These attitudes when applied to the application process are of course completely illegal. A comparable statement would be "we didn't hire the large black man because we were concerned how well he would take instruction from a small white female solicitor", or equally, "we didn't hire the extremely attractive woman because of the potential distraction to the male colleagues".
Now it may be the case that Mr McSorley, like yourself, is in the unenviable position of having to compete for a limited number of jobs against a large pool of talent. However if the firms in question can't show a rational, transparent, criteria based selection process then they may very well [land] in some hot water. Anything other than full transparency leaves massive opportunity for abuse.
As for you TP, if I were you I'd be asking these firms for concrete reasons for rejection. The profession you have chosen to enter is well known for being very sexist and very very elitist.
I wish you every luck.